In my comments in class, I've indicated that I (somewhat playfully) include The Sun Also Rises on our reading list as a "masculine" book. What do you make of that label so far?
To be honest, as for a romance book it is semi-"masculine," but in the first 1-71 pages it still seems like a very feminine book. When you said manly book I kind of got all geared up to read a story of war or something. I think the more masculine parts I am seeing is how the romance played out.
Of course its underlying story is love, but instead of a standard romance novel, this one shows a lot of sex and lust on the surface. Lady Brett Ashely is a great example of this. She won't marry Jake for love and is marrying someone else for lust. Also, Cohn and Frances do not have a perfect relationship that might be seen in a more feminine romance story.
I have to comment on the writing style, as well. A lot of feminine romance novels have a boring amount of detail, but this book doesn't. It's always short and to the point. Most of the time it is a lot of dialogue, so the book is very "action-y" in that sense and could be seen as manlier.
Within the first 70 pages, this book can certainly be classified as masculine. I think the main reason being how Hemingway portrays the women characters. We've really only been introduced thoroughly to Frances and Brett, both troubled women in their own way. Brett is a miserable drunk, who clearly doesn't know what she wants. Frances is Robert's girlfriend, who has quite a negative hold on him. The women, in a sense, are mase to be viewed in a negative, almost "crazy" light. The men of the novel, however, are characterized to make readers feel sympathetic. For example, Robert wants to go to South Africa and do different things, but Frances won't let him or join him. Jacob wants to be with Brett, and cries over her, but she doesn't want him. It's almost a reversal of roles. Today, society men come off as the "controlling" and "not knowing what they want," where as women are the ones left crying over the men who don't want them.
I can definitely agree with Danielle's comment.After Dr. Hanrahan's comment in class, I had expectations of strong male characters in this text, but instead Lady Ashley/Brett and Frances are very dominant. Robert Cohn eventually gains some individuality and confidence after his trip to New York. But, Frances quickly shuts him down when she makes a scene in public. Like Paige Kitchen mentioned, Jacob "cries" and whines over his relationship with Brett, which is feminine. A masculine role would "woo" her or sweep her off her feet. He would not care about the "count"! Also, Jacob is "catty" and spends a lot of time talking bad about Cohn. This is also a feminine disposition.
So far, the characters roles (masculine/feminine) seem reversed to me.
It is so interesting to me that Frances and Brett are portrayed quite independently, and driven by lust (in Brett's case) and a need to dominate (in Frances' case). To be frank I find it to be a refreshing reversal of "traditional" roles in literature, so here I echo Kristen's opinion. Even though these female figures are subjects of scorn for Jake, they are indeed the central subject in many ways, allowing the reader to make passes or judgement at "the liberated woman." Perhaps this novel is feminine in this way, but I can't help but to still consider the structure/form to be "masculine," when considering Hemingway's employment of the iceberg theory discussed on the earlier Snow Day Post.
I agree with everyone so far about the seemingly reversal of roles of men and women, but I can see how this novel can be considered masculine. I mainly see it because of the stark writing style, which Eileen and Danielle mentioned. This novel mainly uses dialogue and the descriptions only describe what is needed for the storyline. Like Eileen said, the female figures are "subjects of scorn for Jake" and because of how they're portrayed, it's easier to feel sympathy for the men rather than the women.
So far what I have seen is most akin to what Danielle has said, but I would take it a step further and say that I feel it is almost role reversal as far as masculinity. So far, I have observed what I would deem weak, whiny, moody male characters and domineering, in Frances' aspect almost to the point of cruelty, abrupt females. Lady Brett has gone so far as to refer to herself consistently as a "chap", and other than the count, I have not seen too much in the way of what we would term as traditional male character roles. To be honest, that is kind of the fun in it for me so far, it takes a traditional romance and turns it on it's ear. I am curious however, to hear a male point of view on this book as I know my husband would find this offensive at best and be disgusted by the male characters thus far.
Although I have not found this book to be immensely masculine, due to the reasons of romance that Danielle has already stated, its female characters seem to have interesting personalities. Hemingway has introduced us to two female characters so far, Georgette and Lady Brett. Neither of these characters are of a quiet demeanor. Lady Brett is publicly drunk and constantly speaking her mind. I find these female characters to be refreshing, and they do lead away from a typical female role.
In the book’s first seven chapters, I see a degree of gender reversal as well as masculinity. As previous posters have noted, the women, particularly Brett, have roles that can be regarded as more assertive than those of the male characters. For instance, both Cohn and Jake have fits of crying, behavior that is traditionally associated with feminine characters. To this point in the reading, the book seems to me moderately more feminine than masculine; however, we must not lose sight of the fact that Jake is telling the story. For instance, Jake’s description of Brett is decidedly masculine. It will probably keep me awake tonight thinking about racing yachts and jersey sweaters!
It is fascinating to me to see the difference in the opinions on whether of not the book is "masculine" in nature. Honestly, I totally forgot that Dr. Hanrahan had indicated the book as a "masculine" book until I read this blog's title. Just as many of my classmates I see moments in the novel where the women seem to be very dominate and the men a bit complacent. These moments in the novel do seem to take away from any preconceptions that the novel is "masculine" in nature. However, I would like to focus on the actual writing style of the book. Danielle briefly mentioned in her post that the writing it not as detailed as a feminine romance novel, she says: "It's always short and too the point." This element in the writing is something I noticed as well. I do believe that the writing style is what characterizes this novel as a "masculine" book. Of course, the narrator is a man which means that the narrative will, supposedly, have a masculine air about it; however, as many of my classmates have mentioned Jake does not always seem to be the most masculine character. Therefore, I think that the indicating of this being a "masculine" novel should be closely examined; and if it does prove to be such a book, then the source of that masculinity should be narrowed down to particular elements that prove such a label.
It is fascinating to me to see the difference in the opinions on whether of not the book is "masculine" in nature. Honestly, I totally forgot that Dr. Hanrahan had indicated the book as a "masculine" book until I read this blog's title. Just as many of my classmates I see moments in the novel where the women seem to be very dominate and the men a bit complacent. These moments in the novel do seem to take away from any preconceptions that the novel is "masculine" in nature. However, I would like to focus on the actual writing style of the book. Danielle briefly mentioned in her post that the writing it not as detailed as a feminine romance novel, she says: "It's always short and too the point." This element in the writing is something I noticed as well. I do believe that the writing style is what characterizes this novel as a "masculine" book. Of course, the narrator is a man which means that the narrative will, supposedly, have a masculine air about it; however, as many of my classmates have mentioned Jake does not always seem to be the most masculine character. Therefore, I think that the indicating of this being a "masculine" novel should be closely examined; and if it does prove to be such a book, then the source of that masculinity should be narrowed down to particular elements that prove such a label.
What gives this story a "masculine" element is the fact that it is written and narrated from a male perspective. Many have noted that the gender roles seem to be reversed in this story. I believe Hemingway may have felt that men were generally seen as controlling and domineering over women, and perhaps felt compelled to show that women are also capable of being this way toward men. While this seems show women in a more powerful light, I feel that most of them have been portrayed negatively. Brett is breaking hearts right and left, Frances is jealous and demanding, and Georgette is a simple harlot. As some of you have mentioned, the style of writing seems much more manly. There have not been many lengthy, flowing descriptions that I have noticed. To me, this story is definitely is something a man would write.
To me, the novel’s beginning seems more masculine because it comes from a male’s perspective, as Rachel has pointed out. Something that I noted in my discussion questions for today was that Jake, the narrator, is introduced through his description of others. He comes across to be hiding behind how he views others and never is truly introduced to the audience. This gave him a feminine persona to me. His description of the other characters did use a masculine tone in his descriptions. One that comes to mind is when Jake is describing Georgette as one who is pretty until she smiles. This came across as a very manly thing to say. So, at points the novel comes across as feminine but it has a distinct underlying tone of masculinity.
I have to agree with everybody that has commented so far on the reversal of gender roles. Because Jake is unable to perform sexually, he is somewhat jealous of Jake who is able to have sex. This, to me, is a very feminine characteristic, and it reminded me of when Morgan mentioned in her blog post on "Trifles" about women who constantly are jealous of each other instead of uniting together as one. While the women, especially Brett, are outspoken and not afraid to say what is on their minds. This is a more masculine characteristic that one would expect from a male character during this time. With that being said, I cannot necessarily decide so far if I think this book is completely masculine or feminine.
I also found this book to be very masculine. I agree with Rachel and a few others who said that the novel lacks detail. As a reader I want to get lost in the detail, so much that I can picture each character and setting. I found that the main female characters we have been introduced to so far lack detail. The only one we really get to know is Brett, who's personality fits that of a man. She is very blunt, drunk, and a cheater. She is constantly leading Jake on, who is definitely characterized in a more feminine light. As far as a romance novel if that is what this is, where is the romance? I am hoping that the romance picks up in book two. When I first started reading this novel Hemingway made it seem as if it was going to be a sports novel based on Cohn and boxing. That ship quickly sank as the story was moved to Paris, which is one of the most romantic and beautiful places in the world. So far there has not been much imagery, which I hope to see more of throughout the book. I thought when Dr. H said this was a masculine book it would contain much more violence and vulgarity.
I too feel that there is a reversal of gender roles so far in the text. In typical romance novels, the female might be found chasing after the male, being turned down, and then whinning about it. Instead we find Brett doing the rejecting and Jakke the whining. I can however see masculine aspects throughout the text, so far mainly how they women are described and later in the text more typical manly thuings occur.
To be honest, as for a romance book it is semi-"masculine," but in the first 1-71 pages it still seems like a very feminine book. When you said manly book I kind of got all geared up to read a story of war or something. I think the more masculine parts I am seeing is how the romance played out.
ReplyDeleteOf course its underlying story is love, but instead of a standard romance novel, this one shows a lot of sex and lust on the surface. Lady Brett Ashely is a great example of this. She won't marry Jake for love and is marrying someone else for lust. Also, Cohn and Frances do not have a perfect relationship that might be seen in a more feminine romance story.
I have to comment on the writing style, as well. A lot of feminine romance novels have a boring amount of detail, but this book doesn't. It's always short and to the point. Most of the time it is a lot of dialogue, so the book is very "action-y" in that sense and could be seen as manlier.
Within the first 70 pages, this book can certainly be classified as masculine. I think the main reason being how Hemingway portrays the women characters. We've really only been introduced thoroughly to Frances and Brett, both troubled women in their own way. Brett is a miserable drunk, who clearly doesn't know what she wants. Frances is Robert's girlfriend, who has quite a negative hold on him. The women, in a sense, are mase to be viewed in a negative, almost "crazy" light. The men of the novel, however, are characterized to make readers feel sympathetic. For example, Robert wants to go to South Africa and do different things, but Frances won't let him or join him. Jacob wants to be with Brett, and cries over her, but she doesn't want him. It's almost a reversal of roles. Today, society men come off as the "controlling" and "not knowing what they want," where as women are the ones left crying over the men who don't want them.
ReplyDeleteI can definitely agree with Danielle's comment.After Dr. Hanrahan's comment in class, I had expectations of strong male characters in this text, but instead Lady Ashley/Brett and Frances are very dominant. Robert Cohn eventually gains some individuality and confidence after his trip to New York. But, Frances quickly shuts him down when she makes a scene in public. Like Paige Kitchen mentioned, Jacob "cries" and whines over his relationship with Brett, which is feminine. A masculine role would "woo" her or sweep her off her feet. He would not care about the "count"! Also, Jacob is "catty" and spends a lot of time talking bad about Cohn. This is also a feminine disposition.
ReplyDeleteSo far, the characters roles (masculine/feminine) seem reversed to me.
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ReplyDeleteIt is so interesting to me that Frances and Brett are portrayed quite independently, and driven by lust (in Brett's case) and a need to dominate (in Frances' case). To be frank I find it to be a refreshing reversal of "traditional" roles in literature, so here I echo Kristen's opinion. Even though these female figures are subjects of scorn for Jake, they are indeed the central subject in many ways, allowing the reader to make passes or judgement at "the liberated woman." Perhaps this novel is feminine in this way, but I can't help but to still consider the structure/form to be "masculine," when considering Hemingway's employment of the iceberg theory discussed on the earlier Snow Day Post.
DeleteI agree with everyone so far about the seemingly reversal of roles of men and women, but I can see how this novel can be considered masculine. I mainly see it because of the stark writing style, which Eileen and Danielle mentioned. This novel mainly uses dialogue and the descriptions only describe what is needed for the storyline. Like Eileen said, the female figures are "subjects of scorn for Jake" and because of how they're portrayed, it's easier to feel sympathy for the men rather than the women.
ReplyDeleteSo far what I have seen is most akin to what Danielle has said, but I would take it a step further and say that I feel it is almost role reversal as far as masculinity. So far, I have observed what I would deem weak, whiny, moody male characters and domineering, in Frances' aspect almost to the point of cruelty, abrupt females. Lady Brett has gone so far as to refer to herself consistently as a "chap", and other than the count, I have not seen too much in the way of what we would term as traditional male character roles. To be honest, that is kind of the fun in it for me so far, it takes a traditional romance and turns it on it's ear. I am curious however, to hear a male point of view on this book as I know my husband would find this offensive at best and be disgusted by the male characters thus far.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I have not found this book to be immensely masculine, due to the reasons of romance that Danielle has already stated, its female characters seem to have interesting personalities. Hemingway has introduced us to two female characters so far, Georgette and Lady Brett. Neither of these characters are of a quiet demeanor. Lady Brett is publicly drunk and constantly speaking her mind. I find these female characters to be refreshing, and they do lead away from a typical female role.
ReplyDeleteIn the book’s first seven chapters, I see a degree of gender reversal as well as masculinity. As previous posters have noted, the women, particularly Brett, have roles that can be regarded as more assertive than those of the male characters. For instance, both Cohn and Jake have fits of crying, behavior that is traditionally associated with feminine characters. To this point in the reading, the book seems to me moderately more feminine than masculine; however, we must not lose sight of the fact that Jake is telling the story. For instance, Jake’s description of Brett is decidedly masculine. It will probably keep me awake tonight thinking about racing yachts and jersey sweaters!
ReplyDeleteIt is fascinating to me to see the difference in the opinions on whether of not the book is "masculine" in nature. Honestly, I totally forgot that Dr. Hanrahan had indicated the book as a "masculine" book until I read this blog's title. Just as many of my classmates I see moments in the novel where the women seem to be very dominate and the men a bit complacent. These moments in the novel do seem to take away from any preconceptions that the novel is "masculine" in nature. However, I would like to focus on the actual writing style of the book. Danielle briefly mentioned in her post that the writing it not as detailed as a feminine romance novel, she says: "It's always short and too the point." This element in the writing is something I noticed as well. I do believe that the writing style is what characterizes this novel as a "masculine" book. Of course, the narrator is a man which means that the narrative will, supposedly, have a masculine air about it; however, as many of my classmates have mentioned Jake does not always seem to be the most masculine character. Therefore, I think that the indicating of this being a "masculine" novel should be closely examined; and if it does prove to be such a book, then the source of that masculinity should be narrowed down to particular elements that prove such a label.
ReplyDeleteChloe, Oh course "short and to the point" is a characteristic of Hemingway's writing style. You and Danielle picked up on this nicely.
DeleteIt is fascinating to me to see the difference in the opinions on whether of not the book is "masculine" in nature. Honestly, I totally forgot that Dr. Hanrahan had indicated the book as a "masculine" book until I read this blog's title. Just as many of my classmates I see moments in the novel where the women seem to be very dominate and the men a bit complacent. These moments in the novel do seem to take away from any preconceptions that the novel is "masculine" in nature. However, I would like to focus on the actual writing style of the book. Danielle briefly mentioned in her post that the writing it not as detailed as a feminine romance novel, she says: "It's always short and too the point." This element in the writing is something I noticed as well. I do believe that the writing style is what characterizes this novel as a "masculine" book. Of course, the narrator is a man which means that the narrative will, supposedly, have a masculine air about it; however, as many of my classmates have mentioned Jake does not always seem to be the most masculine character. Therefore, I think that the indicating of this being a "masculine" novel should be closely examined; and if it does prove to be such a book, then the source of that masculinity should be narrowed down to particular elements that prove such a label.
ReplyDeleteWhat gives this story a "masculine" element is the fact that it is written and narrated from a male perspective. Many have noted that the gender roles seem to be reversed in this story. I believe Hemingway may have felt that men were generally seen as controlling and domineering over women, and perhaps felt compelled to show that women are also capable of being this way toward men. While this seems show women in a more powerful light, I feel that most of them have been portrayed negatively. Brett is breaking hearts right and left, Frances is jealous and demanding, and Georgette is a simple harlot. As some of you have mentioned, the style of writing seems much more manly. There have not been many lengthy, flowing descriptions that I have noticed. To me, this story is definitely is something a man would write.
ReplyDeleteTo me, the novel’s beginning seems more masculine because it comes from a male’s perspective, as Rachel has pointed out. Something that I noted in my discussion questions for today was that Jake, the narrator, is introduced through his description of others. He comes across to be hiding behind how he views others and never is truly introduced to the audience. This gave him a feminine persona to me. His description of the other characters did use a masculine tone in his descriptions. One that comes to mind is when Jake is describing Georgette as one who is pretty until she smiles. This came across as a very manly thing to say. So, at points the novel comes across as feminine but it has a distinct underlying tone of masculinity.
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with everybody that has commented so far on the reversal of gender roles. Because Jake is unable to perform sexually, he is somewhat jealous of Jake who is able to have sex. This, to me, is a very feminine characteristic, and it reminded me of when Morgan mentioned in her blog post on "Trifles" about women who constantly are jealous of each other instead of uniting together as one. While the women, especially Brett, are outspoken and not afraid to say what is on their minds. This is a more masculine characteristic that one would expect from a male character during this time. With that being said, I cannot necessarily decide so far if I think this book is completely masculine or feminine.
ReplyDeleteI also found this book to be very masculine. I agree with Rachel and a few others who said that the novel lacks detail. As a reader I want to get lost in the detail, so much that I can picture each character and setting. I found that the main female characters we have been introduced to so far lack detail. The only one we really get to know is Brett, who's personality fits that of a man. She is very blunt, drunk, and a cheater. She is constantly leading Jake on, who is definitely characterized in a more feminine light. As far as a romance novel if that is what this is, where is the romance? I am hoping that the romance picks up in book two. When I first started reading this novel Hemingway made it seem as if it was going to be a sports novel based on Cohn and boxing. That ship quickly sank as the story was moved to Paris, which is one of the most romantic and beautiful places in the world. So far there has not been much imagery, which I hope to see more of throughout the book. I thought when Dr. H said this was a masculine book it would contain much more violence and vulgarity.
ReplyDeleteI too feel that there is a reversal of gender roles so far in the text. In typical romance novels, the female might be found chasing after the male, being turned down, and then whinning about it. Instead we find Brett doing the rejecting and Jakke the whining. I can however see masculine aspects throughout the text, so far mainly how they women are described and later in the text more typical manly thuings occur.
ReplyDelete